John Courtenay - Radio Cumbria Interview

Last updated : 07 July 2008 By Thetashkentterror

John Courtenay - left disappointed
Former United owner John Courtenay spoke to BBC Radio Cumbria on Friday evening as he talked about his failed takeover bid for the club yesterday, Courtenay saying that he will be contesting the sale by Fred Story to directors David Allen, John Nixon, Andrew Jenkins and Steve Pattison :


" I'm very disappointed, I'd been negotiating with Fred (Story) and talking things through over a number of weeks. We were very near resolution as far as I was concerned, I met with him last Thursday, I drove over to Carlisle specifically to meet him. I left, and we agreed that I would send him an offer letter exactly where I was going with it. My solicitor was on holiday until Sunday, I rang him on Monday morning, I spoke to him on Monday evening.

" I told Fred that he had been away and that I would have an answer, I'd have everything in place in a matter of a day or two. On Tuesday morning I got a note saying that if it wasn't resolved by 12 o'clock he was going elsewhere. At ten past I replied to that but at quarter past twelve I found out that the club had been theoretically sold. Now I say theoretically for a good reason, apart from the issue that I hadn't spoken to Fred since Thursday of last week, he hasn't contacted me at all, in spite of the fact that we were talking about doing a deal.

" Then suddenly he changed his mind and went elsewhere. I haven't had any contact, but on Tuesday morning he sent me the e-mail saying that I was out of the picture basically. I sent him an e-mail, I sent it to his office, I sent it to Story Construction, I sent it to the club, I sent it to John Nixon for Fred, I sent it to one of Fred's senior people Anne Holland.

" So I sent it to six addresses, so he is bound to have got it but I have had no reply since. When I say theoretical, I have been with my legal team today and we have gone through it, and we will certainly be opposing the sale. Whatever that needs, an injunction or whatever, because there is unfinished business in relation to the floodplain land. "



" It's more for the legal eagles than me, I have been with my solicitor for several hours today and he is very confident, he has no problem with it. There was an issue whereby Fred agreed that that land was not part of the sale when I sold him the club and that it would come to me. He then came to me a week or two later and said that it was almost pre-season time, if I put the land in the deal it was going to slow up the deal and take months.

" He asked if it was OK if we transferred it later and I said yes. He then had some issues with the (United) Trust, we went to court in London, I sat in the court with Fred, we gave our evidence, Fred swore an affidavit that the land was mine and I still haven't got it. Furthermore we now have a situation where Dave Allen, now I don't know Dave Allen who you are talking about in the club, the only Dave Allen I know is an Irish comedian.

" But anyway, this guy is not a comedian, he's an accountant, he said yesterday on the radio that the club was £4 million in debt when I was there, a lie, it is not true. The debt when I left the club was around £1.8 million, maybe £100,000 either way of that. It's now down to £1.5 million, which after four successful years is not a great chunk off the debt. He also said that the club was in administration when he went there in 2004, I don't know, if he's an accountant you would imagine he would understand what administration is.

" We were out of administration in 2003, I paid, it cost me £3.2 million in my time at Carlisle. The only difference I have between me and the other four lads who are taking over now is, I never took one penny out of Carlisle United, not one penny. For expenses or anything and it cost me £3.2 million, I don't see that being reflected in what little information is available at the moment, that is not being reflected in the same way.

" We went to the court in London and we had the floodplain land resolved, and he (Story) was told he could transfer the land. He has had four years of negotiations with the trust, which I am not really party to, and he has confirmed to me that he can do it. I don't know why he is not doing it, I honestly can't speak for Fred, I don't know why he is not doing it. "



" He knows the agreement though, we have his affidavit, we have the information, he has said it on the radio, he has been quoted in the papers. He said it on television that the land was mine, that he agreed that that was part of the deal. Well here I am four years later without the land, now had it gone back to the club that is a different thing. He said it suited him because he didn't have to get involved with the land, he would do the deal with me, but unfortunately he has changed his mind.

" Unless the stance that has been taken by the people involved has changed it will be resolved by a court, it's as simple as that, I'm not prepared to walk away. I was actually looking forward to getting back to Carlisle and I am not prepared to walk away, and I have no intention of allowing the situation to go unresolved, none whatsoever. I could have a personal issue with the sale of the club but it means nothing, if the land issue was resolved then I have no further control or no further interest.

" I don't have a situation where I can say that you are not selling that club because I don't like it. If somebody wants to sell their business then they can sell their business. If the business is holding an asset that belongs to somebody else then they have got to release that asset, they can't sell that as part of the business. They can't sell somebody else's asset in conjunction with your business.

" We were very close to an agreement on the sale, I met Fred last Thursday and we agreed basically what he wanted, it's basically what Fred wanted. I agreed, obviously everything would have been subject to due diligence because we needed to check out a few things. There was no major blockage in the middle of it, but if you are doing an offer letter then you have got to be very careful of how you tie yourself up legally on what it represents.

" It's not something that I as a layperson could come along and write an offer letter, because I'd end up in trouble with it probably later on down the road. So I needed my legal people to look at it and to word it properly, Fred himself in the past has been very fond of legal. He always uses legal people and says that the legal people want him to do this, that or the other, and he insists on having this, that or the other in anything you write down. Yet when I needed to do that I got no time to do it, I just didn't get the time. "



" The problem is is if you put four people in, I listened to the press conference and I know some of the people there. Obviously I know Andrew (Jenkins) and I know John Nixon quite well, and I know Steve Pattison, I don't really know Dave Allen, I'm not aware that I know him anyway. To be truthful it was a bit Sandie Shaw wasn't it, it was puppets on a string thing, it didn't sound very rational or logical.

" There were no answers and this guy came on and said the club was in debt by £4 million, no it wasn't, the club was in administration when he came here, no it wasn't. So what is he talking about, this man is a chartered accountant and he did the accounts for those years, so he knows it's not right. So why, if everything is above board, is he not being honest.

" We'd been negotiating for six or seven weeks, anyone who has ever been involved in Carlisle United knows how complicated six or seven weeks at Carlisle can be, and things change. There was no major panic, Fred was anxious to get out of there, and I said to him that another couple of weeks doesn't make a lot of difference, and he agreed that with me about two weeks go. There were some delays I have to admit on my part, but nothing that caused any major thing. Neither did I know, I have since found out, because there were four people apart from Fred involved in it.

" People have families and they have friends and they do talk, and I know that the deal, I'd been told from people who I would trust, I've been told that the deal was agreed before the weekend. Fred had a lot of advertising to do last weekend with his eco houses and such and he didn't want it in the papers. They knew on Friday, and I was talking to Fred on Thursday and they knew on Friday that they had a deal. I was left thinking that I had got to get a deadline letter out as quickly as I can, and then he comes back and says Tuesday 12 o'clock or else too late. This was on Tuesday morning I got that.

" It was about £1.8 million in debt when I sold it, we owed just over £1 million to Bristol and West on the loan that Michael Knighton had. The incident with that loan, the way that loan panned out was that I tried to borrow the money in the UK at a proper lending rate but they wouldn't accept my assets because my assets are based in Ireland, and that's a fact. "



" They wouldn't accept the club as an asset so therefore I couldn't use the club, there was an agreement in the boardroom that that money would be loaned to the club by one of the directors. We let go, the one bank that was interested in talking to us, we let that pass and then the director changed his mind later on down the line. There is no point in me telling you that as most people know who it is, and people who would be interested would know and certainly the directors of the club all know. So ask one of them who it was who promised to loan that £1 million to the club.

" The balance then would have been VAT and taxes, and normal invoices in and out, we would have had money owed to us. I think the total liability was £2.2 million but we had about £400,000 which we were due in, money that we were due in on various things. The club was sold at £1.8 million in debt along with the floodplain land issue for £100, and I never cashed the cheque by the way, frankly £100 didn't really interest me.

" I put £3.2 million in the last time, I'm not saying that I would have put £3.2 in this time but I would have put money in and I would have tried to go for it. My idea would be to be ambitious for Carlisle United, I do think it would take a good push for Carlisle to become a stabilised Championship team. I think that getting to the Championship would be a strong possibility, I think stabilising it there would cost money.

" I would have been prepared to do that, there wouldn't be any point in taking it on, I didn't want to start the yo-yo situation so I would have done what I needed to do on that. I'm a bit older than I was the last time I went to Carlisle, not that I was young then, but I learned quite a lot. I knew what I wanted to do and I had my own plans in mind, but one of the only things, and it wasn't a sticking issue on the deal.

" Was that Fred was mad keen on what I was going to do, I wasn't all that, if he was to say that I was difficult about that I might possibly agree with him. Because I don't see, if I am buying a business off you what I do with the business isn't any of your business once I pay you. So I didn't outline to Fred what I planned to do on business, but it wasn't a deal breaker or anything like that. "



" My solicitors will be taking legal steps, they are actually starting to do stuff already this evening, I have had a couple of e-mails from them, and they will be going to court in the UK next week. Because there is no way in my opinion, and in my legal advisors' opinion, that the company can be sold while the company has a disputed asset included in that sale. I've actually e-mailed Fred on Tuesday after he said it was sold, and said fair enough, it's your business, you can sell what you want, but what is the position on my land. I have not heard from Fred since by phone, e-mail, text, nothing, fullstop.

" I just think it's weird but I think the idea that they came on and made these allegations. When I listened to that thing that said that Steve Pattison was going to take over and was going to develop the youth. I put the youth thing in place, they didn't, after Mr Knighton had screwed up the whole club the youth system was falling down around it's ears and I appointed David Wilkes to the youth thing. It was me who started the youths back up and it takes four or five years, and everybody in football knows that, for your youths to start to work, to pay off.

" They are starting to pay off just now, there are quite a few kids in there that look like they have a real chance of going somewhere. Then the credit of that has been going off to somebody else. I don't really understand, and one of things I'm not too comfortable about is that you are getting all this information, and I've heard several of the directors use the word local, that they are all local directors. Are they implying because I wasn't local that I didn't look after the club. I never took one penny out of that club and I invested £3.2 million of my own money, now how local do you need to be to do that.

" Who knows if I will be back to buy the football club again, I really just don't know whether. I am definitely interested in the football club, the stupid thing went and stole a bit of my heart didn't it, and I got involved. I'm still involved, I still check every Carlisle result, I still take an interest, I still have many, many friends, as I'm sure you are aware, in Carlisle.

" The reality of life though is that I came on here this evening, and you know that I was quite agreeable to coming on and speaking to Dave Allen on the phone, and Dave Allen chose not to do a joint interview. He chose not to come head-to-head and that on top of him saying that the club was in administration when he was there. Then on top of him saying that the debt was £4 million, would definitely worry me, what state would the club be in after a while if that's the way it is being run. "